Transcript
Madeleine B. Smith's Recording - Note: Recorder voice activated.
If it could not detect voice it did not record, therefore, most
questions asked were not recorded. Also, question mark is placed
where words were not understood.
Recorded at by MBSmith at JKC Forum 10-18-98 after Akita Club of
America National Specialty Show in San Diego, CA
JKC Delegates:
Mr. Toyasaku Kariyabu
- Bred and exhibited Akitas - FCI all breed judge - Has served
as President of the Japan Kennel Club, Asia Kennel Union and
Delegate of the Asian Section of the FCI - Is currently Honorary
Chairman of the Japan Kennel Club and Honorary President of the
Asia Kennel Union.
Mr. Mitsuteru Hoshi - Vice President of
Japan Kennel Club - Editorial Staff of the book AKITA - Japan
Kennel Club
Mr. Izumi Awashima -
Translator and breeder of German Shepherd dogs
INTRODUCTION by Translator
Ladies and gentlemen,
I'd like to explain the basic policy of Japan Akita Club and FCI
about Akita problems.
If you can read this book [AKITA - Japan Kennel Club] maybe you
can understand the history occurred ? of Akita and maybe you
can understand the reason why JKC is intending to split the
Akita into two different breeds.
As you know, in Japan we have almost 100% Japanese type Akitas. On the contrary, in the
United States maybe more than 90%, 95% American type. Maybe our Japanese type
is a little bit increasing, but, no so big part of total
population of Akitas in United States. So, the United States
and in Japan we have, it's a big problem even if we don't split
cause problem is existing in Europe and in America.
Four years ago by the General Assembly in Vienna of FCI we are
asked to consider the possibility to split. This proposition or this
question was brought from Mexico and also same questions come
through Europe county. Europe
as in America, if we have only one Akita, in FCI countries it is
a very big problem for America type Akitas in Europe and ? cause there is very,
very small possibilities for American type Akita which can
compete or finish champion title in FCI cause our standard in
FCI countries is JKC standard, the country of origin. And as you know, after
Second World War, 1960s or beginning of 1970s our Akitas in
Japan and American type, maybe this time very short maybe 10
years or 15 years, when we have produced many champions of
American type in Japan.
But, after that the many breeders considered, OK, this Kongo
type or American type is just, have influence, look, of other
breed, in this case Mastiff called Tosa the fighting dog. And during the Second
World War we have very small genetic stocks of Akitas so that in
order to keep the blood of Akita the breeder of Akita crossbred
with German Shepherd only because German Shepherd was approved
as army dogs.
And after Second World War we have three different types of
Akitas. One is
original Japanese type we called it Matagi type, hunting dog
type and second is fighting dog type a mixture of these fighting
dogs, second [third] is a mixture with a German Shepherd. And, maybe the 1970s
many breeders started to eliminate the difference from other
breeds. But, since
twenty years we have not exchanged of the blood of Akitas
between Japan and the United States because American Kennel Club
can't recognize our pedigrees.
Since 1992, if you want import, Japanese type Akita from
Japan, you can not, you could not, you could not, register in
American Kennel Club. And this is very brief ? of why we have three
types.
The Japanese breeder ? the original Japanese type and in United
States you must use only imported Akita during 1945 and 1972 I
think [74] sorry. Now
as a member of FCI, Japan must set up or define its kind of
Akita. Of course as
a country of origin we must take note Japanese type when we
decide our standard.
But at that time, I mean 1970s or 1980s, the European countries
already many Akitas from United States. Directly from United
States or indirectly, I mean through England to European
countries. And
those breeders of Akitas in European countries have been
breeders of American type.
They could not exhibit their dogs cause they cannot get
point, they cannot finish championship. And Japan Kennel Club,
as a member of FCI board, would not also consider this ? of American type in
Europe.
We want to save the existence of American type Akitas in Europe
and in America. We
have considered, we have also other possibilities, not to split
but to varieties, but, if we take two varieties it is allowed to
interbred and with the interbreeding in Europe, maybe ten years
they tried, the results is not so successful. If we consider this
problem with long term, I mean with thirty years or fifty years
maybe they can be successful, but, in the short term, five
years, ten years, this is our experience. And also we got advice
from ? commission and standard
commission of FCI. The variety is not suitable in the case of Akita. Of course some breeders
in Europe they tried to change the type by interbreeding. Of course this is a
decision of the breeder, but to tell you the truth, the results
is not so successful.
The first weekend of November, the JKC and FCI will oversight
the Second World Congress of Akita in Germany. All together eighteen
countries will attend to discuss the problem. The basic policy of
Japan Kennel Club is to split.
In case of splitting we have many, many problems to
resolve. How to
divide the interbred Akita in Europe, from the pedigree or the
policy of the breeder, so, but details, details will be decided
by the standard commission and ? commission. From which date
shall we split is also very important because registration in
every country is different in Europe. Maybe we must discuss also
this problem.
And yesterday Mr. Kariyabu mentioned about the naming for the
new breed. In this
case the new breed means American type because Akita in FCI
countries is Japanese type. And many ideas to give the name for new breed that Mr.
Kariyabu had mentioned yesterday, he will take note the opinion
of ACA. Even if ACA
is now not deciding to split or not to split. Furthermore, FCI is
international organization, we have approximately sixty nine
member countries, but approximately twenty or twenty five
countries are very interested in Akita problem. We have invited
approximately twenty five countries and we got the answer to
participate eighteen countries.
That is a very good number of countries, of course
including Akita Club of America and Akita Club of England and
Finland, Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, Belgium, Poland, ? and Japan.
If the World Congress of Akita in Germany decide to split, this
information will be published by the general committee meeting,
the board meeting with FCI, at the end of November in Berlin. And if there's no
problem by board meeting and FCI commission and also standard
commission the final decision will be made in general assembly
of FCI in Mexico City next year in June.
END OF INTRODUCTION
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
(Note: My recorder
only picked up voices close to it, therefore most questions were
not picked up. Only part of remembered question listed with the
answer. MBSmith)
Mr. Kariyabu and Mr. Hoshi translated by Izumi Awashima
We have now hear our Chairman of Japan Akita Club [Mr. Kariyabu]
and Vice President of Japan Kennel Club [Mr. Hoshi]. And I'm not a specialist
of Akita. I'm a
Skippert? and German Shepherd breeder/judge. Some special questions
about Akita Mr. Hoshi and Kariyabu can answer.
About American type Akita, Mr. Kariyabu would like to mention,
briefly, he believes country of origin of American type Akita is
Japan. United
States of America the country of patronage or country of
development, so that Mr. Kariyabu takes note the opinion of
American breeders. Japan
is country of origin but today we have no, maybe one or two,
American type imported from United States. That we have no American
type Akita in Japan, considering so that like Mr. Kariyabu like
to respect the opinion of American breeder or opinion of Akita
Club of America. We
have made clear is Akita Club of America or American Kennel
Club, JKC is quite clear. But
also FCI is a democratic country and by the World Congress in
Germany we get many propositions of us naming from various
countries in Europe but we cannot say now the final decision. It must be discussed and
maybe decided by democratic way by voting or something.
Question: about
interbreeding.
Answer: Maybe my
explanation about interbreeding in Europe I must add something
[referring to introduction] and with the advice of Mr. Kariyabu. My information that the
breeding is not so successful in Europe, it means if we consider
interbreeding is so far but in five or six generations, ten
years or more generations, maybe the results is different. Opinion interbreeding has not been successful, this
information is from the country, the representative of the
countries, maybe the President of each kennel club or President
of Swiss Kennel Club, not directly from the breeder. And Mr. Kariyabu wants
more information about the success or failure of interbreeding. And some countries says
their on the way of interbreeding so that please give time, more
time, to split. This
kind of opinion from Norway and Sweden.
Question: about has
Japan allow breeding of Akitas to Siberian Huskies and
registered with JKC
Answer: No, it is
logistically impossible to breed Japanese Akita and Siberian
Husky cause Japan Kennel Club is a pure breed club and it's not
allowed to breed, to crossbreed Siberian Husky and Akita in
Japan.
Question: about
defining standard of new breed
Answer: Generally
speaking the country of origin can define the standard of the
breed. In the case of American type, new breed for FCI, the country
of origin is Japan, the country of development or country of
patronage is United States but we have eliminated or we have ? out the breed of
American type from our countries, we don't have only two or
three imported of American type of United States so that the
standard commissions, commission will take mainly the standard
from the United States. But,
but, finally we must coordinate the opinion of Japan, opinion of
the standard commission, opinion of ?.
In the case of changing standards, in the case of Akita, Mr.
Kariyabu believes the country of patronage or country of
development, in this case that is of America, can propose and if
you decide the changing of your standard in Akita Club of
America, the standard commission of FCI will take note of it and
they will consider to change.
Mr. Kariyabu would like to add one word. In the case of setting
up standard of new breed in FCI will respect the standard of
ACA, but in this case, we need always mutual exchange of
opinion, some description in your standard can be modified in
the standard of FCI but the less modifying the better is the
belief of Mr. Kariyabu.
Question: about
registering with JKC an American Akita living in the United
States.
Answer: At this
point, today, if you export your American type of Akita from the
United States to Japan, Japan Kennel Club accept and can be
registered as Akita because today we have only one breed in
Japan and in the United States even if the type different. But, the American type
Akita can be registered and can be exhibited in JKC show, but,
the breeding, it depends on the breeder and it is not sure that
Japanese judge can give you a good placement.
If you want exhibit your Akita in Japan, even if you have
American pool-Japanese type you can exhibit in JKC show but in a ? this dog must be
registered JKC.
Question: If you
have no desire to show Japan, if you just only want to have a
JKC registration, nothing else.
Answer: What is the
purpose?
Question: You know
I really don't know. It's
just a possibility in the future or lets say you wanted two JKC
registered dogs here, maybe they are Japanese type.
Answer: If your
purpose is pretending, pretending, legally like or if you avoid
legally immigration, or if you avoid legal immigration, or if
you avoid immigration legally, not so good from view point of
moral, maybe JKC consider case by case.
Question: about JKC
in 1960s or 1970s issuing JKC registration in husbands name only
instead of husband and wife's name.
Answer: The
situation in 1973, at that time the Akita Club of America was
not recognized by the American Kennel Club, yes? And since that time we
are not involved and we cannot check now ? the States but we can
check in Japan. But
it is very, very ridiculous, if you apply the right name of
owner and we issue with a different name of owner, it is
impossible today because now we're using very precise IBM
computers which check, double checking, are checking and
checking.
Question: about
American breeders who have been using American Akitas to change
to Japanese type.
Answer: Maybe my
understanding of your question is right. You are now on the way
of changing your type from American type to Japanese type since
many years and you'd like to continue this procedure and if in
the future ACA split the possibility will disappear cause
interbreeding is forbidden.
But if you choose the new breed in the United States, in
this case Japanese type, you can continue, yeah, to develop or
make progress of your dogs.
It depends on your choice which direction do you continue
to breed.
Question: about
confusion, do Japanese agree with crossbreeding Japanese type
and American type.
Answer: The answer
is very delicate. In
European countries we have encouraged to make progress or to
develop Akita in Europe. In
this case we have had only one Akita in these countries. If somebody has American
type Akita, we ask to make progress with the breeding, but in
this case we checked. If
the dam is 75% Japanese and 25% American, we persuaded to finish
to breed to change [to Japanese] but now, we are now considering
to split, we cannot anymore encourage the breeder in Europe to
start to interbreed.
Question: about how
split would be done, would use DNA testing, etc.
Answer: Japan
Kennel Club use DNA tests five times or ten times a year to
check if this is real application or real certificate of
breeding. In the
case of splitting, the DNA test is one of the methods to use
but, we believe most important point to split is the breeding
policy of the breeder. Even
if the pedigree describes only 25% blood of Japanese type or if
the breeder is going to Japanese breed, maybe we can accept or
can recognize the breed as Japanese breed.
Question: about
Japan allowing use of frozen semen.
Answer: We have
been studying the breeding with frozen semen or chilled semen
and we have finished the study and we are now discussing from
which date we recognize the breeding with frozen semen.
Question: about
what is descriptions of Japanese type and American type.
Answer: The
definition of Japanese type and American type, there many, many
definitions and when we split Akita into different, two
different breeds, maybe we must adopt some complete criterion
and this will be decided by standard commission and FCI
commissions. But
Mr. Kariyabu says, OK, so called American type so called
Japanese type, but it is very, very difficult to see the line,
to distinguish, it depends on the definition.
Question: about how
split will be done.
Answer: If ACA
split and maybe it distinguishment or to separate method will be
defined by ACA. We
have also similar questions from European countries, what is the
method, what is the way to separate, what is the criterion, from
pedigree or from the breeding policy of the owner. This kind of
details must be discussed at the Congress, next Congress
Germany. We're
speaking if its necessary, Japan Kennel Club make some
fundamental basic criterion to split Japanese type and American
type. But, this is
basic criterion, general criterion, the final criterion should
be made by ACA to split. Now
no guideline.
Question: about
when would criterion be decided.
Answer: (Note: Had
to turn tape over, did not record answer - MBSmith.)
Question: about
would JKC like to ACA to split immediately.
Answer: ? if ACA decides to split, we are ready to send.
Question: about 30
year study on the migration of the Akita.
Answer: ? about the ? opinion we know all this
kind of research or studies has study with DNA tests and we know
we have some Japanese breed from continent, some Japanese breed
from different breed and different ?. In case of splitting, we
don't ask for DNA tests. This
factor and socio factor or human factor must be considered when
we split. Mr.
Kariyabu says American type, I mean physically American type
Akita has DNA setting of Japanese type Akita. To which category each
dog belongs to, this is very, very difficult problem. ? not sure if my answer is
? for you. I agree basically with
you, the American type body and the Japanese type head very nice
to create if possible, we're afraid American type head and
Japanese type body can be also possible. And, but my sincere
answer is not joking, I'd like to say, if you want to develop or
make progress American interbreed, realize your idea, you will
need, if you, if you take direction the Japanese tree.
Question: about
statement that American Akita immune system gene pool small,
will JKC put pressure on ACA to split.
Answer: I'll repeat
your question. In
United States gene pool of Akita is not so rich as that of other
breed, is that right? We
don't want to put any pressure to split, this is the decision of
Akita Club of America, but, but, approximately seventy countries
will split in the future and the United States is the biggest
country of the world, you have more that four point four million
registrations a year, Japan is only four hundred thousand
registrations last year. And
the international relations between USA and Japan is year by
year ? . Last year we imported
two thousand dogs form United States, if we have different way
about Akitas, it makes it more complicated and if possible the
biggest organization and second biggest organization stay
parallel way in the future. This is our hope, not pressure.
Question: about FCI
procedure to recognize new breed.
Answer: Our
legislation FCI says if FCI recognize new breed, the standard
commission must check if new breed has at least eight different
blood lines and at least two hundred or three hundred
registrations a year, I can't remember now. In case of the American
type Akita in the United States is enough number and enough
blood line.
Question: about
does Mr. Kariyabu feel in his heart that splitting best thing to
do.
Answer: Your
question is Mr. Kariyabu believes or feels the splitting right
or not. His feeling
with his heart is as follows - For him both types, American type
and Japanese type they're originally Japanese breed. Unfortunately we have
approximately twenty years no exchange of the blood between
United States and Japan. American
type Akita today cannot be recognized in FCI countries. This is a very big
tragedy for his heart. He'd
like to revive, he'd like to save American type Akita, this is
his purpose to split. The
American type Akita in European countries and South America
countries they cannot be exhibited in FCI shows, they cannot be
placed past second, third. If we recognize American type Akita as independent breed,
they can be ? in FCI shows, they can be champion of FCI. They can be placed first
place, second place, third place.
? condition
exists in European countries and in American countries, also
Asian countries beside Japan.
Question: about split
Answer: It is
described, is explained in this book [AKITA - Japan Kennel Club]
but I can explain, because we'd like to eliminate the influence
from other breed.
Translator:
A meeting Mr. Kariyabu would like to mention, it's his opinion
or belief of his activities.
The Japan Kennel Club has studied many things of American
Kennel Club and he believes American Kennel Club is one of most
advanced organizations in world. And we know you have many experience or more experience in
accumulation of scientific datas.
You have more history than Japan Kennel Club. Of course, this problem
to split Akitas, we have our own opinions, we have our own
experiences about Japanese types but you have more experience of
American types. We
want to exchange or study mutually but the decision will be made
by FCI countries and American Kennel Club or Akita Club of
America can choose your own way to the future.
Question: about existence of another Japanese breed.
Answer: We believe
pure ? no longer exists.
Mr. Kariyabu would like to thank you so much. And we have continued to
sell copies of this book and we will donate ? dollars a copy to
Akita Club of America, all together, two hundred and fifty
dollars will be donated to Akita Club of America. But, if possible, we want, Mr. Kariyabu want, donate more
money and we hope the person who want donate more please come to
us and buy.
? three? hours to discuss the problem and Mr. Kariyabu believes
our discussion very, very constructive and productive. He believes not only
Japanese type Akita, but also American type Akita, that both
types must be protected as purebreed dogs.
