ACA Breakfast Meeting with JKC (at 1997 Akita National Specialty)

Minutes of the Meeting of the Akita Club of America

Laughter

Female voice: I think you can see how enthusiastic and excited we can get.  If it's agreeable, we can have breakfast and then have our meeting.


Translator: Thank you very much for your hospitality and welcome to Japanese delegation for Akita and Mr. Kariyabu would like to explain the nature of problem in the eye and would like to explain the basic quality about these problems.


Mr. Kariyabu has been the president of the Japan Kennel Club since about 20 years, 25 years.  And at the same time the nationality he has been the member of the board of FCI and those 25 years he has seen or judged and visited in over 60 countries.


In the last 10 years, Mr. Kariyabu has gotten many opinions or different opinions about Akitas in the FCI show giving countries. There is raising popularity of Akita now is increasing among these countries.


Translator: In the country of origin the Continent Club has very big duties about maturation of Akita.


Translator: He knew that to be told of the problem Mr. Kariyabu passed the World Congress of Akitas last December at the dog show.


Translator: And Mr. Kariyabu had invited 40 delegates from 14 countries.


Translator:  Not only from FCI countries but from United States where we have as guest or commentator or member of American Akita Club.  As you know from United States we have invited Dr. Sophia Kaluzniacki and Ms. Nancy Henry to attend  and Mr. & Mrs. Loren Egland from California.


Translator:  And as you know, today we have strong Akitas in the world and in the naming that contrarily at the reality whole problem.  We have two types, a whole Japanese type and American type.


Translator: And we have discussed the problem sometime and come to one meeting from Kennel Club; one basic policy the difference between the types is so big, I mean that a total type difference, so that we should divide into the different breeds, with the intended breeds in the future.


Translator: And a different opinion is we should take those two types as two different varieties in one breed, but this was a small opinion.


Translator: For shows in Mexico, they have started already to split into two different breeds in a domestic shows.


Translator: Of course in FCI the countries must judge Akita under FCI's rules and FCI regulations.  In the FCI we have a very long tradition. The  standard of the breed comes from the country of origin or country of patronage.  In this case for Akita FCI judges must judge Akitas only under Japanese standard.


Translator:  Now we have 68 member countries. To add that they as you know are partners. We have full members, associate members, half members, and contract members (like beginning members).


Translator: And of course we have a very big countries,  America, and Canada and United Kingdom.


Translator:  And the United Kingdom has been member of FCI but was not happy, and quit. And with FCI they divide the member countries into four areas, regions, one is Europe, one Asia, one Australia, and the last is Latin America.


Translator: Among FCI member  kennel clubs,  The Kennel Club, and the American Kennel club , we have started a meeting for all these nations in five years even to widen and deepen our understanding.


Translator:  And Mr. Kariyabu believes of course if Japan Kennel Club is a member of FCI that in order to resolve the problem we must consider not only to make in FCI countries but also outside of FCI countries, in America, Great Britain, Canada.


Translator:  And we'd like to keep consistency for Akitas.  Means we would like to have for a same resolution about Akitas. The FCI must consider their interest, but also recognize that the AKC and JKC have mutual pedigrees.  We would like to resolve in the same way.  Mr. Kariyabu came to see the American type, and was impressed and excited at the nice American type.  We cannot deny this type.  We have a proverb in Japanese ; which means peaceful coexistence with property.


Translator:  But with this situation American type Akita cannot exist in Japan and in Europe and FCI countries they must be judged under FCI standard that Mr. Kariyabu  like to take also American type which  is very very strong very beautiful existence and they should be judged as a different type.


Now in FCI countries American type Akita has not competed and cannot win. but Mr. Kariyabu would like to take concentration so to not alter American type Akita, but would like to keep all the chances American type to become  Winners Dog, Winners Bitch, or Best of Breed.  This is the reason why we would like to recognize two different breeds. And as you know since five years American Kennel Club, Continent Club recognize the pedigree mutually. You can consider the results of the problem


Translator: Breeders should decide  this goal ,that they need to decide what way to go, American or Japanese type.  So that I would like to keep some time before final decision. If we divide, there could be confusion, misunderstanding, or fear.  We need to make wide and deep education, and the final choice would be by the breeder.  We have to consider the profit to the breed first, then humans. But as organization as a dog organization we should consider firstly the dogs second be the human beings for our foundation.  And Mr. Kariyabu would like to have the opinion of you.


Rita: Thank you. Before we begin we should introduce Mr. Jim Crowley, from the American Kennel Club.


Crowley:  First of all, welcome to the United States.  Glad you could come.  And it's a very nice specialty and you said that you have  much appreciation of our Akitas so I thank you.


I was requested to come here by the Akita Club of America as an observer and a speaker, but also to be a resource and secretary of the American Club. I have been with the American Kennel Club for 26 years. One of my unofficial jobs is unofficial historian of the American Kennel Club.  I am aware of several things you have done in other breeds which may be parallel to this situation in the past which the American Kennel Club would consider and would not consider.


The American Kennel Club, unlike the Japan Kennel Club has no individual members, we just have member clubs.  We have 4,500 dog clubs in this country, 500 of which are member clubs that have a vote .  Among the member clubs there are 145 parent clubs, one for each of our breeds; each of our registerable breeds.  These parent clubs, under the AKC constitution have a great deal of authority within their breed.


The breed standard belongs to the breed club, not to the American Kennel Club. Anything that's done that is a change, is subject to AKC approval but it must be initiated by the breed club.


Basically they would advise the club on what their options are, what the possible courses are, but as to whether to ask AKC to consider those would rest strictly with the membership of the member club.


Speaking about dividing the breed, there have been cases in our history, where we have divided breeds in the past, generally, those breeds were shown as varieties for some period before they became separate breeds, Fox Terriers, Norwich and Norfolk Terriers, the three Belgium breeds, Belgium Malinois, Sheepdogs, and Tervuren, what had happened in those cases, for a number of years, the breeds were shown in varieties and we were able to track that there was no interbreeding between those varieties for a period of years to minimize the confusion when there was a split so we wouldn't have a dog with a sire of one breed and a dam of another breed, so after a number of years of no interbreeding, that why AKC considered dividing the breeds.


In other cases where we have divided the breeds, there is always a clear distinction in the Norwich, Norfolk Terrier, it was the prick ears and the drop ears, as for the other breeds, it was kind of like coat where you could look at the dog and could tell which breed it was.  If we do divide, there would have to be a clear enough distinction so that a dog would not fit both standards, could not tell what breed it was and would have to be something clearly defining what made a dog this breed or what made a dog that breed.


The only case when that was not so was the case of the Cocker Spaniel and the English Cocker Spaniel, which were one breed, but the English type was shown as a variety in this country and when there was no interbreeding for a period of years, with the English type and American type, they became two breeds and now in England the Cocker Spaniel is actually the English Cocker Spaniel, and our Cocker Spaniel is American Cocker Spaniel.
Laughter.
 

That is probably the closest precedent, even now we've had cases where registered Cocker Spaniels do not do any winning because they resemble the English Cocker Spaniel and visa versa, where the situation has carried on with that breed.
 

So basically, there is precedent for dividing the breed in this country, as to whether or not the American Kennel Club would consider it would rest with the Akita breed club.


At this time, from what I see, it has not really been a big problem in this country, except for those who wish to compete overseas and those who wish to export dogs overseas.  Those are the circumstances that are really affected at this time in the United States so at this time it is principally an FCI problem.  In the future, as you said, if there are a great number of imports coming in that could change at some time in the future, but right now, I don't know how much interest it would be among the general Akita population or those who are not adversely affected by this .


Translator: Mr. Kariyabu would like to understand one protocol  .  About sixty-five years ago, our government recognized Akitas as a national treasure and the name of Akita was actually recognized at that time.  And because that time we have had various different names.....


Translator: and at this time, 65 years ago, we have had two different imported blood lines, one Ichinoseki, one Dewa.


Translator: and about Ichinoseki, we have 8 different very important blood lines. But there we have two important blood lines.  And after second world war, American people imported Akita from Japan, many long Dewa lines and we called it German Shepherd type Akita.


Translator: On the contrary, our Japan type Akita is from Matagi type Akitas.  Different blood type from Dewa.


Translator: About German Shepherd type Akitas have only population in Japan and disappeared.  But on the contrary, the 8 bloodlines of the Ichinoseki has prospered  in Japan.


Translator: About 30 years ago you have founded Akita Club of America, and almost all members are following Kongo type.


Translator: In the course of time, American Kennel Club has voted to recognize  the pedigrees of Akita Club of America, at that time we have no relation with the AKC and Akita Club of America


Translator: We are apart about 30 years, between Japan and United States we have no change of blood, no importation of Akitas to each other so it's a different problem of the organization.


Translator: Mr. Kariyabu saying to  recognize our Akitas, we have three difference types, one is Matagi type, you call all Japanese types, and the fighting type, and the German Shepherd type. The Matagi means the hunting, the Matagi type is the dog for hunting. In the past, 200 years, the Matagi and Tosa were bred to get bigger and stronger Akitas.


Translator: And so the same thing happened with the German Shepherd type during the second world war when the German Shepherd were accepted by the army as army dog.


Translator: Other dogs, I mean except German Shepherd, other dogs were used to take apart for the army ... many other breeds, only German Shepherd could exist as army dogs, so that the breed of Akita must use German Shepherd to keep the blood, is the reason why we have German Shepherd type Akitas.


Translator: And Mr. Kariyabu found dogs of all three types for the national specialty here in St. Louis.


Translator: In 40 years in Japan almost all Akita breeders tried to get rid of the influence from other breeds, and the influence of Tosa and influence from German Shepherds. Is the reason why we are keeping the Matagi type Akita in Japan.


Translator: That the commission of varieties means the difference is difference of type, the difference of size or coat color that is only superficial in for understanding. The  American Type, German Shepherd Type and the Matagi type  they continue to crossbreed because crossbreed was recognized among breeders, so that Mr. Kariyabu's opinion is we accept as two breeds. Which make more confusion as they (the breeders) may continue to crossbreed.


Translator: And also in the dog show phase,  varieties in the poodle, dachshund will cause confusion for the judges, if we recognize American Type and Japanese type Akita.


Rita: Thank you.  I guess we have several points to make, perhaps a few questions.  I think we are in agreement that this is a very complicated issue that must be thought out very, very carefully.


As I explained in my letter  Mr. Kariyabu,  we as a breed club are just getting to look at this issue.  We are in no position to offer an official position at this time. We have formed a committee, that will study this issue.  We charge to that committee to research all of the variables involved, and how they would be impacted with one or two breeds.


There are many alternative solutions all the way from leaving exactly as it is in our country, doing nothing, to splitting the breeds, to everything in between.


Another solution is the one that you have been alluding to and that is a resolution within the Japanese standard for the Akita. And that would be to create a variety, split the breed into two separate breeds.


A third option within their own standard might well be to reexamine the issue of black mask.  I understand your concern about the influence of the German Shepherd and the Tosa, which have the black mask, but, would there also be another possible solution.


I believe we in this country try very very hard, all of us to breed to our standard as it is written, and all the way from the head to the tail, all of the points.


I do have a question.  If you were to split the breed in your standard, what you call the American Type?


Translator:  We would like to prevent confusion, would like communication, discussion, and agreement.
Laughter


Rita: You want an easier one?
Laughter


Translator:  In direct answer to the question.  He'd like to avoid confusion, even if we divide the two types of Akitas.  Which means that we'd like to be patient and have agreement about the naming on both sides.  And it does appear to be that the average life of Japanese human beings called as men is 76.  Mr. Kariyabu is now 72.....
Laughter


Translator: and we would like to be told that the problem will be resolved in 3 to4 years.
Laughter


Translator: We would like to emphasize  our purpose is not to destroy, but to preserve the American type.  Now the American breeders cannot export.  We split to develop both types.  The name is important, but first we must have 2 types, save 2 types.  Both types are Akitas. The country of origin is Japan, not only for Japanese type, also American type.  Our dogs, our Akitas.


Translator: Of course in United States there are many of breeders and we get many opinions from them. The Akita Club of America is our partner in solving the problem.


Rita: Thank you.  I would like to relate for everybody here, that yesterday during judging, Mr. Kariyabu and Mr. Harashimo  had occasion to ringside examine, at least I was there for  one of them, one of our specimens. They did examine two, and I found it very interesting that what occurred was seen from just standing.  The areas of improvement noted in the black dog, the eyes should have been a little more oblique, the dog's movement in the rear, needed improvement, and the tail needed a little more length.  Other areas of this exhibit was found to be very acceptable.


Translator: If we judge the dogs in the ring with a judge under Japan Kennel Club standard, we can mention markings, that must be to our  eyes the total existence to the dog. The American type is so much far away from our Matagi type, and we can recognize a difference in it's  total general appearance.


Translator: And we noticed  one point about trimming... some of the exhibitors make a cutting on the neck and croup of the  dog.  In Japan Kennel club one can't even be allowed to cut coat.


Rita: That's frowned on here very much.


Translator: And in your  opinion that is not  allowed.


Laughter


Rita:  The point of my bringing up our examining together the black dog, is to show that we can, with what you  demonstrate, that it is possible to judge different types within one standard.  Another example of that, of course, is the Alaskan Malamute.  As judge's you know that the Kotzebue line and the Maloot line are very different in type and in size as well.  But the judge does not become confused by that, they simply apply the standard which dog can freight, which dog can survive in the Arctic.  Lots of Japanese cross talk.


Translator: When we would understand about the Malamute in the  United States, and that we would agree in that case, we must consider Akita not a domestic problem, but an international.  This is international problem, not domestic problem, and if we split these two different breeds, there  might be a consideration for the country of patronage, of new breeds, it's in the case of the American type the United States.  And of course our  Continent Club would like to  help you to split them, and also keep communication  that the new name for the new breed, we might discuss.


Rita: One of the variables that we certainly would have to look at, is whether or not, from the view of our membership, the difference in the way they look, so called Japanese type and so called American type, is enough of a difference that that cannot be accommodated in our existing standard, and would require us to create a new breed.  That definitely is a variable that must be studied very carefully.


Rita: We have a saying in this country, "If it's not broke, don't fix it."


Translator: Mr. Kariyabu would like to point out three differences of type in this area we have discussed about the two variety, but made opinion  the cross breeding will be recognized that cross breeding of the types is  confused not of good desires.  And if it is hunter, (Matagi type) it's face color in modification of the standard of Akita, and hunter is not describing ideal Akita of Akiho. In discussion with Japan Kennel Club and they discussed Akiho is not describing ideal Akita, is describing from the good Akita, or ideal Akita to the acceptable Akita.


The Standard of the AKC and JKC and our standard is describing ideal and top point is maybe as country of origin as a member of FCI which our standard is describing ideal Akita is recognized the different character of the standard if we compare the standards.


Rita: I don't understand.  Obviously you have to look very carefully at the standard. At this point, we see the major difference in the standard as being one of coat color, and mask, and again, relating back to the examining of the black dog, we even apply the same ratios in the head, from the nose to the stop, stop to the occiput.


Translator: We recognize a difference between  the JKC and the AKC standard is not so big, even if we relegate black mask and pinto as fault. We recognize that the difference of standard.  The difference in the dogs is the problem


Rita: What we understand,


Translator: Maybe this is explanation of Akita,  copy of our JKC standard, will help.

Rita: Looking at this, we too desire the small triangular ear that comes of the back of the head,  we desire that.  We too desire the 2 to 3 ratio on the head.

Translator: I have let your ?????????? Cross talk interfering with hearing commentator

Rita: I think we are in agreement that this is an issue that's going to require very serious consideration and talk.  And something that we must be very careful ???????????  (Too much chatter to hear)

Translator: And Mr. Kariyabu  ask you, he hopes, (cross talk covering commentator) 

Female:  I would like two things, any materials that you could send me, that our committee can use to research. I must stress, and I think the membership will agree with me on this, the name Akita is very important.

Cross talk again blocking commentator.

Translator: We have come to  United States to welcome Akita, and Mr. Kariyabu would like to have opinion for the Second Akita conference and special Akita dog show.


Sophia: Again, this is my opinion, my own opinion and nobody else's, I find that the dogs that I saw in Japan, were very very lovely excellent specimens, very exotic, very beautiful heads, very different in many ways from our dogs.  And very, to me, two different breeds.  That's my personal opinion.


Translator: And, I have had the opinion about two points, you need various information, various resources,  we want help you.  Secondly, you mentioned split into different breeds, many breeders in United States, and many Akita breeders, they have very strong wish for keeping of the name Akita and part of the naming would have special consideration. Some FCI countries have proposed a special name, but we have no interest in these names, and also it's not sure how to solve the  problem but will make a note of our opinion on the name.


Translator: And also we must consider the puppy or baby which was a very very important problem, very serious problem.