Transcript AKC Portion of Forum 10/18/98
at
1998 ACA National Specialty
( by Kay S. Greisen based on her tape
recording)
Rita Biddle: Hi.
This is problematic. I don’t know. As far as we knew,
everything was clear for the Japanese to be here at 8, but
something has gone afoul and, so, the premise of this gathering
is not a formal structure. The Japanese, when we were in New
York, they said they would want to be doing a slide show and a
presentation. But, when I spoke with them earlier they said no
they really didn’t want to do that. Now, maybe they’ve
changed their mind again, I don’t know. But again what we
really want to do is this is just to afford people the
opportunity to come and speak to the issue, to ask questions,
Mr. Crowley is here back you can ask AKC questions. And when we
put out the little brochure Future of the Akita, the first part
of that was dedicated to questions & answers that we had
gathered up to that point anyhow and we were writing to Jim back
and forth many many times as we'd get questions in and he was
very gracious in answering them very expeditiously. So,
there’s not going to be any formal statement, this is just for
a sharing of ideas and we intend to do this again in Denver.
When we go over to
Germany in a week or two at their Congress, the Japanese would
like us to have a formal position but we don’t because we
haven’t really had the opportunity to fully discuss it with
the whole membership. And, that’s one of the reasons that the
board chose to at least wait a year and have a discussion
another discussion in Denver so that everybody who wants to can
have the opportunity to be heard and to listen to what their
peers have to say. So that’s it. As I understand the options
relative to the splitting issue, they would be: leave things as
they are, create varieties, do a split, I think that’s about
all the generic options, generalized options. And then, if we do
nothing, that one’s easy. We don’t have to do any more. If
we do either varieties or a split, then there are AKC
requirements which must be met and, of course, any decision will
be by a three-quarter [I think it’s three-quarter] vote of the
membership in writing. Two-thirds? OK, thank you, I ....
Two-thirds or three-quarters. So, it’s not a decision that the
board’s going to make, it’s not a decision that I’m going
to make, it’s a decision that you’re going to make. So,
anyhow, in order to make that decision, we need to talk and
that’s why we’re here. So, who would like to go first? I
went first, so who would like to go second? Susan.
Susan: Actually,
I’d like Mr. Crowley to go second and explain in AKC terms the
ramifications of either splitting the breed or varieties.
Rita: OK. I think
that that’s probably a very good place to go second. Mr.
Crowley
Jim Crowley: Good
morning. In a way, the procedures are actually putting the cart
before the horse. As I’ve explained to the board [and the
Japan Kennel Club is well aware] when it comes to something
breed-specific like this AKC is not going to initiate anything
unless the request actually comes from the parent club. So, as
Rita said, it is going to be up to you whether we can even look
into doing anything at all. As far as going varieties or going
separate breeds, in either case it would entail a change in the
breed standard .... Either a change in the breed standard to
explain and describe a separate variety or in fact a separate
distinct breed standard where you’d have two standards
describing two different breeds that would be mutually
exclusive. You’d have the Japanese Akita [or whatever the
eventual name is]and the American Akita [or whatever the
eventual name is]. It’d just be like the English Cocker
Spaniel and the American Cocker Spaniel. Two separate distinct
breeds. In either case, it would be a matter of going to the
membership, and the by-laws would require they have a two-thirds
vote of the membership to approve either including a variety
into your standard or amending the standard and coming up with a
new standard. If you did eventually request that the AKC board
include two breeds, in all likelihood the Akita Club of America,
at least initially, would remain the parent club for the two
breeds. This is what we did to the Fox Terriers and the Norwich/
Norfolk Terriers where there’s still only one parent club for
the two distinct breeds. So that would be the precedent that
would probably be followed there.
It would be a matter
of, first of all, probably having an opinion poll to see if
there was even the interest in the club or sufficient interest
to go forward with the actual procedures rather than going right
into changing the by-laws and it’d probably first be wise to
see if what the opinion of the club’s membership was. Was
there actually sufficient interest to warrant the split or
warrant varieties to proceed and go forward with the technical
votes that of changing the necessary by-laws.
As far as splitting
the breeds, when a new breed comes into AKC, if that’s the
route that the club does request and AKC approves, we usually
require that there be a sufficient gene pool in this country
with a good geographic distribution before the breed will get
full recognition and be put into a group, most likely the
working group. Generally, a new breed coming in we require an
absolute number of something in the area of seven or eight
hundred living dogs that would form the foundation stock in
AKC’s registry. It could be actually AKC dogs that are
registered now. It could be dogs that can betaken from some
other domestic registry. We’d actually take over some other
domestic registry. Or we have what we call an open registry
where for a period of time, negotiated between AKC and the club
generally in the area of three years, we do accept pedigrees
from some other domestic registry. This is what was done with
the Border Collies, the Australian Shepherds, the Cavalier King
Charles Spaniel. We actually accepted the pedigrees from the
other domestic registry for a period of time to build up the
gene pool of foundation stock with AKC. So those are all
possibilities if it actually comes to that.
One suggestion has
been made to divide it by pedigree, where any dogs that are
Japanese import or any subsequent generation bred in this
country where all the lines go back strictly to Japanese import,
would become the Japanese Akita. I’ll just use those names now
since no definitive decision has been made on names. Those dogs
would become Japanese Akitas. Any dogs that have been in the
registry that had been interbred with American stock , Japanese
imports that had been interbred with American stock, all of
those dogs would become or remain the American Akita. That’s
just again a proposal, that’s not a decision, that’s not
something that AKC has mandated, it’s just something that has
been discussed as one possibility of how we’re going to divide
these dogs that are now all AKC-registered Akitas and decide
which goes here and which goes here. I think there would have to
be some clear-cut decision and not just leave it up to
individual owners oh I want my dog to be here or I want my dog
to be there. It would have to be something and one logical
suggestion has been using pedigrees to actually define which dog
would go into which place.
The procedure again
would be probably first be an opinion poll to see if there’s
sufficient interest. If there is sufficient interest, it would
then be a matter of contacting the AKC board and saying the club
wants to do this and developing a timetable and a procedure, the
primary facet of which would be amending the standard even if
you go with varieties or go with breeds. And in our discussions
with the Japan Kennel Club, they were not really interested
ingoing varieties for the simple reason they are adamantly
against interbreeding Japanese stock with the American stock
and. [inaudible question from audience] my impression was they
were against interbreeding the dogs. [inaudible comment from
audience] Just in my discussions that’s been my impression,
but again I could be wrong .... They said over and over....
[inaudible comment from audience] ... If varieties, that would
mean they would be shown separately but they could be certainly
interbred and the resulting litters could be registered. [more
inaudible comments from audience]
Cristina Egland (?):
I was speaking to Mr. Kariyabu and his interpreter and he was
shocked that there would be any reason not to be able to breed
to the imports. He feels it would be correcting some of the
things that the Americans are lacking and that the Americans can
correct some of the things the Japanese are lacking. This was
said right in front of me. And I heard them both with my own
ears.
Jim Crowley: I think
part of their reservation if my impression about that
interbreeding was when dogs are exported then if they do even if
we went varieties, in all likelihood FCI would have 2 different
breeds. And what would happen when you export an American dog to
these countries? Which way would it go if it was an interbred
dog? Would it be a Japanese Akita in FCI or an American Akita?
Cristina (?): ......
Because they go by the standard ..... [mostly inaudible]
Jim Crowley: They do
that with the Belgian breeds but I think the differences in the
Akita would be a lot more subtle than a clearly distinctive
visible coat difference. [inaudible comment] The gist of it is
that , OK [more inaudible comment from the audience] but
you’re saying that variety would be a transition rather than a
permanent solution. Cristina (?): [partly inaudible] Not
correct. No, it wouldn’t be variety. It’s just that he said
when he said that of course Mr. Kariyabu ..... Given a ?? amount
of time to reach the point to go for the Japanese type
...??....and give the people and the Akita, the ACA or whatever
a chance to achieve what .?. they want to achieve .....??.... A
change they couldn’t do .?. before
Jim Crowley: It’d
still be a split. It’s just a time factor .... It’s the
number of years. Cristina (?): That’s the time frame. And then
it would be not ....it would be ... what it would be is it if we
did have a split it would split at a certain point
.....[inaudible]
Jim Crowley: So
they’re not looking for a permanent variety solution. It would
be a split in the breed.
Cristina (?): It
sure would be. But in a period of time.Unidentified male: Excuse
me. I just must’ve been on a different planet yesterday
because I’ve been in a meeting with the Japanese and they were
definitely against interbreeding. ..... They’re here and we
can ask them. [audience comment: they were told that the meeting
was going to be at 9:00.] It was my understanding that there
were two different opinions..?.. but probably we should ask the
guy who said it. Cristina (?): We did. We were talking to the
interpreter .... [many speaking at once .... Can’t comprehend
/ transcribe] Interpreter: .... Explain the basic policy of
Japan Kennel Club in this guide ...?....
Unidentified female:
I just have one quick comment. Not who said what to whom but
what is happening. It’s rather apparent that the Japanese are
more than willing to export our Akitas. How many have they
imported to quote improve their breed?
Rita: For this piece
of the discussion, let’s ask questions of Jim that are related
to AKC. I have a couple. You mentioned that you would realize
(?) domestic registries. Akiho would or would not be considered
an American registry? Would the Akiho-registered dogs be counted
in the breeding pool of the ..
Jim Crowley: The
Akiho, the registry is actually maintained in Japan, not in this
country. There we do have a reciprocal agreement with Japan. The
only dogs that are imported to the us from Japan that AKC will
register are those that are first registered with the Japan
Kennel Club prior to being exported. Now something like this, if
it was a request from the Japan Kennel Club, I’m sure
something could be worked out for those Akiho dogs for a period
of time ... and it would be a limited period of time ... could
be accepted with the AKC registry and this would only be based
upon the concurrence of the Japan Kennel Club. If Japan Kennel
Club is not in favor of it, which I’m sure they would be, we
would not do it. The only registry in Japan we have a reciprocal
agreement with is the Japan Kennel Club, so any exception to
that would have to be worked out between the Japan Kennel Club
and the American Kennel Club. The old “where there’s a will,
there’s a way” ... And, if the Japan Kennel Club is
receptive to that, I’m sure we would probably work it out if
this is also what the Akita Club of America wished.
Rita: So let me
clarify the question. Again in establishing the pool of seven to eight
hundred dogs, would AKC require that they be 100% Japanese
blood, or three-quarter or one-quarter or what would it be?
Jim Crowley: The
actual method of splitting would have to be something that would
be worked out based upon the request from the Akita Club of
America with something reasonable, some reasonable rationale on
the way to split. If it was reasonable, in all likelihood our
board would go with it. I would think the mixed breed dogs, the
dogs between the Japanese and American types, would in all
likelihood and rationally stay with the American Akitas since
they were brought in to improve the breed stock here. The whole
premise of this is that the Japan Kennel Club wishes not to have
the interbreeding. It would not seem logical to start the
foundation stock with the dogs that have been bred between the
two types. That’s getting away from why we’re starting the
whole new foundation stock to start with. Pat Szymanski: I have
a question ..?.. about the figure of the six to seven hundred
dogs.
Jim Crowley: It’s
just the general average. To come into a variety group now
that’s about what we’ve been requiring, the mid hundreds
.... About six or seven hundred dogs is a ballpark figure.
Pat: I do know
ofother breeds that have been way way less than that.
Jim Crowley: Not in
recent decades even breeds coming into the registry.
Pat: Now is this
just for varieties or would this be for a total split?
Jim Crowley: If
it’s varieties that’s an entirely, I’m talking about
entirely splits, coming in as an new breed, an entirely new
breed.
Pat: I do know of some other breeds that ..?.. with
considerably less than six or seven hundred.
Jim Crowley: That
actually come into a group? [inaudible response] Not in recent
years anyway. I can think of all the recent breeds coming up
[inaudible response] I’ve been involved since the Sharpei,
...?... Breeds like the Cavaliers, the Australians, the Border
Collies, the Jack Russell and all that well over a thousand.
Pat(?): ..?.. They were considerably less, and there was another
breed. If I can think of it I’ll ..?.. I was given the numbers
in New York, very very, very very low.....
Jim Crowley: That
may have been going back a ways. Everything coming in recent
years is probably ..
Unidentified male:
You mentioned that the 100% Japanese line to split at, that
would seem most reasonable? Right now though, perhaps that’d
be true when they first came in, but now we’ve got dogs that
have been bred to three-quarter, seven-eighths import lines. Now
those dogs have anywhere from three to seven times more import
genetic material in them ...?.... Their actual physical
appearance.....?.... To me it doesn’t seem reasonable anymore
to necessarily go 100%. Where are those other dogs going to be
shown now? It does look that way and they look just as good or
just the same or very similar to that other breed now but
they’re in the opposite breed. What are you going to do with
those dogs? There are probably more of them than there are of
the other.
Jim Crowley: There
again, basically what I’ve been saying is based on the
discussion. Now, till we actually get a formal request from the
Akita Club when they come up with a rationale, it’s hard to
say now. What we would have to have though is something
definitive ... Say, three-quarters would be Japanese, anything
less American, whatever. You’d have to have some cut-and-dried
criteria. What we would not do is just leave it up to each owner
....oh, I want my dog to be in this type, I want my dog to be in
this type ... It’d have to be some clearly definitive thing
that our computer and registration people can command and
actually move into the two different registries. As long as it
made sense and of course ..?.. that it could be done, but it
would have to be, of course, across-the-board split down and
everything that was in this category went here, everything that
was in this category went there. It’s not going to be a
mishmash where each owner can make up their own decision.
Pat: Just one point
of clarification that I’d like to have made clear. And that is
with the issue of the numbers. As I understand it from my
discussion before, the issue of seven, eight or a thousand dogs
is for recognizing a breed to compete for points or to go in a
group.
Jim Crowley: Right.
Pat: If you were
going to recognize a breed into miscellaneous to start with,
those numbers do not hold, right?
Jim Crowley: Yes,
exactly. Breeds coming into miscellaneous now are fully
registered and they can compete performance events. The only
thing they can’t do is compete for championships in shows till
they build up sufficient numbers in which case they then move
into a variety group. Unidentified female: Aside from the color
differences, how do the Japanese Kennel Club breed standards and
our breed standards differ? I mean ... I’m seeing here
completely dogs, I’m seeing completely different types. I’m
not talking types. I’m talking breed standards. How do the
breed standards differ in other regards?
Rita: Maybe you want to ask that question to ...?... In
addition, in the last issue of Akita dog, there is that form
..?... Hold that question. You have a question for Mr. Crowley?
Unidentified female:
At the present time in this country we are judging the Akita by
the American standard which of course the ACA petitioned the AKC
to accept a long time ago.
Jim Crowley: Correct
Same female: Does
the Japanese Kennel Club as, well, I mean that’s the country
of origin [and it’s customary to go with the country of origin
for the standard] .... Can they impose upon the AKC that the
Akita is now going to be judged by the FCI? I mean, how does
that work?
Jim Crowley: If
there’s going to be any change at all, it’d have to be
initiated by the membership of the Akita Club of America. Under
AKC’s by-laws, the Akita Club of America owns the Akita
standard, and only the Parent Club can initiate a change,
subject to AKC approval. But, any change would have to be
initiated from the Akita Club of America.
Same female: So, in
foreign countries, supposedly their parent clubs have just
accepted ....
Jim Crowley: Not
parent clubs, it would vary. They go by FCI which is an
oversight organization regulating events in many countries. As
far as the breed standards, they delegate that to the country of
origin. And if the country of origin ...
<tape direction
change> ... So they use the FCI standard. One of the reasons
AKC could never join FCI is that we have reciprocal agreement
with FCI: they would approve any FCI shows in this country and
they recognize us as the only registry in this country. So they
cannot force us. We would not try to impose our standard on a
foreign country, and they could not impose their standard on us.
Anything that’s going to change in the Akita standard will
come from the Akita Club of America, not from AKC and not from
any outside force.
Pat: [barely
audible] I think you clarified ..?... And I don’t know how
these rumors got started ...?... But it has never ever been
mentioned that the AKC standard would be changed. Never. The AKC
standard is the standard that will and should be accepted all
the time, whether there be a split tomorrow. It would be the
Japanese dogs that would adopt a standard that would more adapt
to our dogs. The American dogs that we have now will always be
kept under the AKC standard. We have no desire to change the
standard for the American dog, nor does JKC, nor does FCI.
It’s the American Akita standard, and that’s the way it
should be and the way it will be. So that needs to be clarified.
If and when the split takes place, it will be the Japanese dog
that will adopt the FCI / JKC / country of origin standard. The
standards are very alike in verbiage, and that has a lot to do
with the inability and the hard way of determining ..?... The
problem is not within the standard. It’s that we have dogs
that do not fit the standards. The two standards are alike, yes,
but the two breeds of dogs are different. And the American you
know ..?.. some other way of trying to keep things stirred up.
The AKC standard is in no jeopardy whatsoever, and that has to
be clarified.
Unidentified female:
I want to step on the other side of what was last. The other
side of the looking glass. Let’s just presume for a minute
that FCI / JKC splits the breed which is everywhere but what?
English Kennel Club? American Kennel Club?
Jim Crowley: Most of
the English speaking countries in the world are not in FCI.
Canada is not. England is not. Australia ..?.., New Zealand is.
Same female: Let’s
say the English speaking world versus the FCI. If the FCI has
two breeds, what is AKC going to do about importing these if we
only keep one breed?
Jim Crowley: OK,
well, this again we would probably consult with the Akita Club
of America. If the Akita Club of America wishes to accept both
of the breeds as Akitas, the American kennel club would probably
do that. The problem would probably run the other way as to how
the countries outside of the United States would treat imports
into their countries. For example, there have been movements in
some countries to split the white German Shepherd from the
German Shepherd. But the white German Shepherd came into this
country, even though it was registered as a white German
Shepherd out (?), We can still register it as a German shepherd
here. ..?.. Unless the Akita Club felt differently. Anything
breed-specific, the Akita Club of America is probably going to
have the final say on anything affecting it.
Barbara Hampton (?):
[barely audible] I think one of my questions was handled, but
basically I wanted to ask: say, just for argument sake, we do
not split breeds. What does the AKC suggest (?) On splitting
classes by color? In other words, if we wanted to take our open
classes and have an open white, an open red / white face, an
open brindle ... If we had enough competition to have a class,
...
Jim Crowley:
Certainly many breeds do have classes divided by color and
that’s established by the parent club of those breeds. This is
an acceptable division in a breed, provided it can be consistent
with the standard. That would be fine.
Kay Greisen: I have
a series of questions and I want to make a comment. You were
saying something about one possibility would be splitting by
geography. I don’t have personal knowledge of dogs from Japan
versus dogs from the United States.
Jim Crowley: Dogs
with strict ... after a certain year, there was a period of time
where we did not have a reciprocal agreement with Japan. Dogs
could not be brought into that country. We would pick some
arbitrary year, subsequent to that agreement with the Japan
Kennel Club, and dogs imported into the country and all dogs
that are strictly bred back to those dogs could be considered
the Japanese type as well as any current dogs being brought in
from Japan. Any dogs that have been interbred with other
American dogs would be considered or remain the American Akita.
This is all speculation at this point. Until we actually get a
proposal from the Parent Club this is just one way that has been
suggested to delineate how we would actually divide and have two
separate breeds.
Kay Greisen: My
comment is: I’ve been told, and I don’t know if this is
true, that not all the Akitas being bred in Japan are of the
Japanese type. That some of them are of the American type. How
would you deal with that?
Jim Crowley: Again,
Mr. Awashima can better answer what is happening in Japan.
Kay Greisen: I have
a very basic question: how exactly does the American Kennel Club
define a breed?
Jim Crowley: Of
course, if you go far enough back, every breed, every breed is a
mixed breed though. So it’s a matter of a breed that going
back to a certain point in time that’s been defined, clarified
with a standard, and from that point on has bred true and only
dogs that have been registered as that breed and conform to that
standard that’s been bred to another dog of the same category,
they would have registerable litters. Once we define a breed and
put it on our registry as a breed, from that point on it is
considered a breed and we would only register litters if that
dog is bred to a registered dog of the same breed.
Kay Greisen: And
when you talk about breeding true, is there a time frame? Over
how many generations? Or how many years?
Jim Crowley: Well,
before AKC accepts the breed, it would have to be recognized in
some registry, either a registry kept in the United States
...<tape
direction change>... Registered dog for a period of years or
generations. There’s no hard-and-fast rule, but any breed
coming in ... We’re probably talking ten, twelve generations
minimum of a purebred specimen kept by a creditable registry or
AKC actually based its foundation stock on that other registry.
Kay Greisen: I have
another question. Prior to foundation stock registration, I was
handling the registry of the Akitas in this country. And I’m
very familiar, or I was very familiar, with pedigrees issued by
the different registries in Japan. And, the registration
committee was very concerned at that time about the accuracy of
the pedigrees issued by the Japan Kennel Club and their
policies. And, what I’m wondering is, when the breed when you
reopened the registration of imports in ‘92, was there any
stipulation about JKC’s policies? Did they have to clean up
their act, so to speak?
Jim Crowley: We were
in close communication with the Japan Kennel Club for many
years. Members of our computer and registration staff went to
Japan, visited with them, went through their registration
procedure, the registration paperwork, and we were convinced
that they had a creditable registry, at least as creditable as
AKC’s. Perfectly reliable. We had no problem at all accepting
their pedigrees. Otherwise the board would not have agreed to
have this reciprocal agreement. There are many countries in FCI
where we did not accept their pedigrees for various reasons.
It’s not an automatic thing. We go country by country. Each
case is carefully examined, the registration paperwork and
procedures, before they’re put on the acceptable list. So, if
anybody is on the acceptable list, and there are about forty
countries that are, the board has carefully examined or taken a
staff recommendation that they are carefully examined and have
completely creditable registries. We are assured of that. As of
‘92, we’ve had no problem at all in accepting the Japanese
pedigrees.
Madeleine Smith:
[barely audible] I understand that ...?... opposed to Americans
using imports to continue improving American dogs. They have no
interest in how American dogs are going to Japan. But, what they
are interested in is that a framework of years is set. In other
words, if we say we need twenty years to complete this process
of stabilizing characteristics in the American Akitas, then we
would agree to a split. Would AKC allow that type of framework
where the Akita Club of America says we will agree to a split in
twenty years if you allow us to obtain the quality imports from
Japan to improve ...?... And so forth and so on? If we can do
that, then we will agree to ...?..
Jim Crowley: ...?...
Twenty years from now. I don’t know. My impression is ... They
can speak for themselves ... But my impression is they are going
to go ahead outside of the United States in FCI and split the
breed, whether it’s two years down, three years down ...?...
In this country, if the Akita Club of America wanted to leave it
like it is and come back, I doubt if our board is going to say
OK effective 2020 we’re going to have a split ..?... We
don’t know what the Akita membership is going to be then. It
could be a complete change of opinion or something in the next
twenty years. I’d be more interested in what’s planned for
the next two or three years rather than for twenty years down
the road. If you vote now to keep it as it is, then you can
bring in Japanese imports to breed with the American stock,
that’s your decision. And, if you’re going to change in
twenty years, you should come back either seventeen years from
now or ... Twenty years is a little bit too far for a time frame
for us to ..?.. Approve a split twenty years down the road.
Unidentified female:
[barely audible] The decision to allow the imports back into the
United States was not undertaken lightly.... By ACA or AKC. And
since there are many different styles of American Akitas as
well. When you look into the ring, you see many different head
types, different body types, different coloration’s ... And
since we do have several AKC champions ...?... such as ...?...
and different champions who are as much like the import as they
are the American dog. Since our breed club and AKC sanctioned
these breedings that we have now done, some of us, some of us
feel as if we ...?... Because we don’t want to go with dogs
that do not resemble ..?..,
Jim Crowley:
What’s your question?
Same female: The
question is: is it going to penalize those of us who believed
ACA and AKC when they said you won’t do this? Because all
Akitas are ..?.. a breed ..?..
Jim Crowley: No dog
is going to lose its registration, its titles, or lose credit on
titles or anything like that. I don’t know what you mean by
penalized?
Same female: Will
the Japanese imports who are now AKC champions ...
Jim Crowley: They
would keep their championships ..?.. We’re not going to strip
the titles ...?...
Unidentified female:
Maybe you could clarify for us the difference between like we
were split putting the dogs into classes versus putting them
into a variety versus the split.
Jim Crowley: Well,
classes and ...?... No matter how many classes you have,
there’s one winners dog and one winners bitch who can get the
points and one best of breed that goes into the group. When you
have varieties, you have a winners dog and winners bitch in each
variety and there would be two representatives that go into the
group. That’s the variety
Pat: I really have
to take exception to what Madeleine said about the dogs. I
don’t know what she was in but I watched the judging and I
have never seen better quality, more consistency than I have in
the American Akita in the ring. You were saying that the
American Akitas need this and need that. I think that they’re
getting it within their own breed. When I looked at those young
males, the head types were very very ..?.. They all had stops,
they all had width. Just about 99% of them had forward tilt ear.
I thought the tail, the topline, the whole quality of the dog
was excellent. All the feet were knuckled up. Some of them
weren’t as tight but the Akitas that had terrible feet, they
had what I call turtle feet, I feel one hundred and ten percent
improvement in these American dogs. We have done tweenie
breedings. All of us have. And, what you’re doing is ..?..
you’re creating a third breed. When you have ...just a moment,
I’m talking from experience ... When you have this great big
massive dog and you put in ... Some people have been lucky and
some people like the type ... When you get these great big dogs,
these American dogs with the big square blocky heads which they
are supposed to have, and you incorporate the Japanese dogs, and
you get a pointer muzzle, ...?... You’re breeding in more
inconsistency. The Japanese dogs are much different in structure
and some people can’t see it maybe because they can’t see
beyond color. The Japanese dog is a more upright dog, it’s got
a tuck up like a narrower dog. There’s thirty pounds
difference between the average American dog and the average
Japanese dog. When you incorp. ... Some of these American dogs,
their bone is like this. Even in our largest Japanese dogs we
don’t want nor need nor do we have bone like that. It would
throw the whole balance of the Japanese dog off. If you keep
incorporating, you’re going to eventually get this great big
bony dog, and the chests are going to be narrower. Excuse me,
I’ve done this. I think I have more Akitas than anybody ...
Just a moment .... Eventually what you’re going to get ...
[general chaos]
Rita: This part is
for questions for Mr. Crowley. Do you have a question for Mr.
Crowley? We will do more discussion. If you have a question,
it’s for him.
Pat: You can’t ...
Before going through what I ... I mean, you can’t have two
varieties. Why? Because there’s not two varieties of dogs.
There’s at least twenty (?) Varieties ..?.. You can’t get
two varieties ..?.. [general chaos]
Unidentified female:
[totally inaudible]
Jim Crowley: Yes, if
there was a split in the breed, say, it was January 1, 2000, and
you imported a dog from Japan at that point, it would if the
Japanese type Akita was in the miscellaneous class at that
point, it would be a registerable dog but until there were
sufficient numbers, it would probably be in miscellaneous.
Unidentified female:
I’ve got a champion. So he’s going to be in miscellaneous.
Jim Crowley: Right.
The breed would be in miscellaneous. The dog would maintain any
titles. Then again, we’re speculating. I couldn’t tell you
at this point if we’re dealing with a hundred dogs or if
we’re dealing with five hundred dogs ... If we’re talking
about owned by ten people or owned by five hundred people. Until
we actually run the numbers, it’s hard to speculate on exactly
what will happen.
Unidentified female:
Do you have knowledge of what the FCI countries are discussing
on how they’re planning on doing the split? And how soon
they’re planning on ....
Jim Crowley: Again,
Mr. Awashima .... Yes, the Japan Kennel Club is chairing the
meeting next year in Germany so they can better address that.
Unidentified female:
I would like to ..?.. the Japanese kennel club at this point. I
personally have exported two American heavy boned ... A mismark
and a red with a black mask ... over to Japan. They tried
breeding them in with their Akitas to get bone. It did not work.
[general applause]
Barbara Hampton(?):
I just have a question about ...?... So, say for instance,
Japanese imports that have attained their American championships
prior to whenever we do the split. Would that dog and all her
progeny, be it American-blend or be it total Akiho Japanese,
would those dogs all go into the new miscellaneous?
Jim Crowley: It
depends on how we’re going to define the existing dogs here as
to being American and to the Japan Akita Club criteria. It would
be based upon the Akita Club of America coming up with a
rationale for doing it and for our board approving that which,
if reasonable, we would approve it. It’s really speculating
now until we actually have a concrete proposal to look at.
Susan Cargill: I
have a very short three-part question. Bear with me on the first
two please. I need horse people’s attention. Maybe Sophia can
answer me because we’re talking about splitting by pedigree.
What is the percentage that appendix quarter horses are allowed?
Seventy-five percent? Fifty?
Sophia: I have no
idea. I’m not into quarter horses.
Susan: I know
because they keep a registry exactly like that. And I know AKC,
once we split, will not allow the crosses back into. But
that’s something that we genetically should think about since
the horse breeders have been doing this for quite a number of
years. And the dog breeders better get educated on that.
Seven-eighths? OK. That’s just a mental note maybe people need
to think about. Second question I have very quickly for Mr.
Crowley is, if they do have the numbers, you’re probably ...
You know a lot of people are scared of going into miscellaneous
and losing their championships and not being able to compete ...
We’re probably talking a very short period in miscellaneous
... Six months to a year, is that?
Jim Crowley: Yes,
probably. It depends on the numbers, if it goes accordingly in
miscellaneous, we’re probably talking a year, maybe two years
at the outside. Until we actually see the numbers, it’s hard
to even .... So maybe they won’t even have to go into
miscellaneous if they have sufficient numbers and distribution
initially. Again, we’re speculating. I couldn’t tell you
what the split would be if we actually tried to divide it out
right now.
Susan: Well, some
people are scared it’s going to be years and years. And the
third part, and I don’t mean to be defensive about this but
maybe I was in a coma in ‘91 and ‘92, but I sure don’t
remember ACA working out with AKC anything about importing.
Jim Crowley: We’re
dealing again anything breed-specific, we would work with the
breed club. When we’re dealing with all-breed registries which
would affect all breeds, we have ... The AKC has a reciprocal
agreement with the Kennel Club, with the Canadian Kennel Club,
with the Japan Kennel Club. We don’t go to a hundred and
forty-six breed clubs to reach those agreements.
Nancy: Perhaps we
can, and I don’t mean to have you shorten your questions, but
perhaps we can get the information from the JKC representatives
and then come back to more questions so we have all the
information before we go out. Thank you.
Unidentified male: I
was going to add something about the horse question. I raise
Quarter horses. What happens is if you use a Thoroughbred with a
Quarter-horse mare, the foal simply would be an Appendix mare.
And what happens is that you have to have that foal inspected by
the American Quarter-horse Association to meet all any ... The
standard for that horse to be accepted as a Quarter-horse. So it
has that ... I don’t know how you get seven-eighths in one
breeding and all that kind of thing, but that’s the way they
do it. And they actually come down and inspect it. It has to
have certain color, ... There’s a whole lot of things. But
then they actually photograph it .. Front, side, the whole
thing. ....?...
Jim Crowley: I’d
just like to say one or two quick things. I have to leave about
ten thirty to catch a flight so I’ll be here another hour or
so. It’s probably good for you to hear from the Japan Kennel
Club directly as to why they’re taking the position they’re
taking. If you don’t get your question answered here, you can
feel free to call or write anytime. As far as procedure, I’m
not going to talk philosophy. What’s for the good of the breed
is going to be determined by you the Akita Club of America
membership. And again what I’d like to do is assure you that
AKC is not going to initiate anything unless the movement for it
comes from the Akita Club of America. So you have that assurance
it’s going to be your decision either way. Once the decision
is made, then AKC would become involved as far as helping you
set up procedures, timetables, that type of thing. But the
actual philosophical decision is going to have to be made by
you, the Akita Club of America. I’ll be here for another hour
or so, if any procedural questions come up during Mr.
Awashima’s comments. [GENERAL APPLAUSE]